Talk:Ashley/@comment-26359208-20151009065452/@comment-26617960-20151009113619
If you did, you wouldn't have said that. Normally, I don't like to get involved in these kind of discussions.. but I just have a few things to say about Ashley and all the hate she is getting.. I'm not trying to start an argument, but I have a few things to say about her and some of her actions. (This is INCREDIBLY LONG but I still HIGHLY recommend reading all of it) 1. Ashley vs. Emily: Okay, so let's tackle a big one right off the bat. How exactly is Ashley a "bigger bitch" than Emily? I don't really dislike any of the characters in the game because I understand their archetypes and their roles, but Josh and Matt are definitely at the bottom of the barrel, so I'll look at this as unbiasly as possible. Let's look at their initial atitudes shall we? Ashley is friendly, cheerful, and generally happy to be around her friends despite what happened a year prior. Emily is snippy, rude, starts arguements, and looks down her nose at everyone. Emily is supposed to be a bitch. How can you sit here and claim Ashly is a larger bitch than the the "bitch" character? That makes no sense. If you want to use Ashley wanting to shoot Emily as proof of her "true self" than you obviously know nothing of fear and what it can do to someone. Ashley is obviously very very scared, and she doesn't handle it very well. If you look at her stats she is not a brave person, she is a coward, but does that make her a bitch? Mike also wanted to shoot Emily, and he's brave. Now you can go on and say they are both evil people, but... How? Mike clearly states that it would be best for the group if Emily wasn't there because of the possibilty of her changing into a Wendigo. They wanted to protect everyone, including themselves. And when Ashley discovers the truth about bites you can decide to share the information or not. Are you going to use her not sharing the information as further proof of her bitchiness? Because I turn around and say the exact opposite. You can share the information and Ashley is clearly upset and feels horrible about what she did. Emily will have none of it and at the end she still complains about Mike holding a gun to her. They had pure intentions, survival, and yet people see it as bitchy. What if the bite would have changed Emily? They doom themselves if she stays. they did not know it would not change her, you can't use hindsight to try and paint someone in a bad light. That's not how this works. Also back to that basement bite drama, if the roles were switched, wouldn't you think Emily will tell Ashley to get the hell out? Think about it. Also, People should seriously stop worshiping Emily for being the one responsible for having everyone getting out alive at the end of the game. Yes, her idea of calling for a rescue was smart, but the characters end up killing Hannah in the end anyway, so they would have been safe regardless. Calling for the rescue simply meant that they would leave the area faster, it does nothing to increase their chances of survivability because they're already safe. Furthermore, if Emily and Matt didn't go the tower earlier, it would still be standing by end game, so they can go there and radio for a rescue in the safety of daytime. Emily suggesting that they go to the radio tower does moot for her character. I'm not saying you should stop liking Emily. You are entitled to like whoever the hell you want to, no matter how crappy their character appears to others, but stop using the 'calling for rescue' as a pedestal to elevate her status. I think the biggest Con to Emily is that she doesn't do anything in a group. She is very good at lone surviving, but she refuses to do anything for herself when there's another person present who could do it for her. The other thing I think is worth noting is, while Emily's ideas turned out right in this particular story, I actually disagreed with a lot of her ideas. She shouldn't have split with Chris and Ashley; they should have gone looking for Sam together, then all gone to the cable car and radio station, or check on Josh's body as a group. And before the radio tower collapsed, she thought regrouping with everyone was a bad idea; remember at this point they think there's a single, human murderer who has only killed Josh. Being a group of 7 is the best option. There's a lot of times in the game where people get killed/hurt because they don't have information other members of the group have, and Emily is a large part of that. I think just because Emily's plans worked out doesn't actually mean they were the best plans, same as Sam splitting off from the group. 2. Ashley and Chris: You can't use her locking Chris out as proof. This isn't something that has to happen, and clearly the trophy you get for it states what is going on. Ashley snaps. Chris was someone she cared deeply for, and he was going to kill her. She may plea that he shoot her instead, but that just proves how much she cares for him. If you point the gun at Ashley first she begs not to die, because who the hell would want to be shot in the head? Her emotions getting the best of her does not make her bitchy or a bad person. Granted she does let Chris die, but if he was going to kill her anyway why should she care what happens to him? He clearly doesn't care enough about her. Why aren't people calling Chris an asshole? Why is he so liked? He can choose to shoot Ashley. You can't have it one way and not the other. Again you can't use hindsight to protect or belittle someone. The situations were what they were in the moment. Also... The "correct" choice during the saws and gun trap is to do nothing. Chris doesn't even need to make a choice, yet you can choose to shoot Ashley. Explain to me how that is any different than leaving someone to die? It did always me as odd that the fanbase considered Ashley shutting the door to be so cold (and it definitely is, not denying that it's pretty fucked up), when Chris shooting her can be just as awful. The guy spent the entire game saying "I've got your back, I'll get you out of this, I won't let you die!" And then when it comes down to his life or hers, he can point the gun right at her and shoot with no hesitation. Honestly, I wonder if people are so much more against Ashley in that situation because they're playing as Chris. Like, imagine if the game had you play as Ashley in those situations, where Chris would shoot based on your relationship status and previous choices (you'd probably have control over their conversation before the saws come down just to give you more input to the outcome) and you'd switch to Ashley at the door where you can decide to open up or back away, complete with flashback to Chris shooting if he did so. You think people would be more pissed at Chris and saying "man, he shot me to save his own skin, what a dick," because they didn't have control over it? How many players would back away then? Ashley never knows you actually picked Josh in the saw scene, and that's why it doesn't affect her attitude with Chris in the slightest. Chris never tells her that and she probably can't hear Chris saying "no, that's not what I--!" over the sound of the saw getting closer to Josh as he picked to save him. Imagine you are Ashley, and your crush tells you that he won't let you die no matter what. Then, as he picks the gun, he:  a) Points the gun at himself. You already saw one of your friends die, so you start to panic and tell your crush to shoot you instead, and he does. (and keep in mind that when in a state of panic, sometimes people say things they don't really mean)  b) Points the gun at you. You beg him to not shoot you and he still does. Now let's skip to scene where Ashley doesn't open up the door for Chris after he shot her. So this guy who supposedly was gonna protect you like a knight in shining armor because he loved you oh so much and all choose to sacrifice you so he could live before. You have the option to open the door and maybe die, because if he already chose himself over you once, who says he won't just sacrifice you to the Wendigo so he could live (like pushing you out and taking your place, similar to the Em situation at the end)? Except on this case you would really die because it's not fake. While you stand there dwelling on "do I want to live or risk myself for someone who doesn't give a crap about my life?", Chris dies.  Personally after what she's been through that night, I think that her actions were pretty plausible. It's easy to think outside of the situation that we would be absolutely perfect and manage to help everyone to stay alive, but honestly, in a life-threatening situation like the one they experienced? People would most likely turn on each other to try and survive. 3. Selfish: Okay, so she's selfish in a life or death situation. We can't all be Sams. Not one person here can say they would be like Sam or Mike or whoever if they have not actuallly been in a situation similar to Until Dawn. Fear doesn't strange things to people, and everyone sees different routes to survival. Just because Ashley thinks of herself in some situations before thinking of her friends in order to survive does not make her a bad person. And seriously, let's look at some sitations here. You can choose to try and find "Jessica" at one point. If Ashley decides to do so she dies. So, like, putting others first at all times doesn't exactly work every time. And if we are going to go on about people being selfish, look at Emily. She can choose to keep the Flare Gun for herself, indirectly leading to Matt's death. Good going. And Sam can "panic" and hit the switch early. Everyone else dies but, oh well, Sam survived! Look at one character and saying only they are selfish is very narrowminded.﻿ 4."Doesn't Ashley's honesty bar go down if she says she's sorry for what happened to Hannah?" False statement! Just finished the game for the 3rd time. The only times Ashley's honesty trait dropped and I took notice were when she says to Chris that she saw no ghost and when she lies about the book to Sam. Every other time only her charity trait increases or decreases when referring to Hannah. Her charity and courage increases when she opts to find Sam rather than state that she is scared. It's not some level-headed informed decision she's making....it's "Ashley Snaps" not "Ashley has a hissy fit". The events of the night have broken some part of her mind and that's the result. It's a common horror trope, the game is full of them. The action is uncharacteristic of her, it's not a simple matter of her just being some b****, it's a matter of subjecting her to hours of horrific events and then shooting her in the face, that was a tipping point and it made her snap. Everything before that point shows her to be a decent person, full of remorse for what they did a year ago, willing to risk her safety to help her friends....it's not a simple matter of "well I'll show him", she has, well.....snapped. The game is meant to have harsh consequences for the choices of the player, but Ashley is the only character who actually can see a change in their characterization because of them. Everyone else acts the same way all the way throughout, no matter what your butterfly events are. (Chris is always a good guy, Mike's always an action hero, Sam never does anything whatsoever to develop, Emily is always a b****) It's the fact that she can actually go nuts and do something villainous or be a good guy based on your decisions that makes her a cool character. It isn't a decision of petty vengeance. Did you miss the point I made about it not being an informed decision? She isn't making a decision based on her normal thought patterns, the events leading to that point have broken some part of her mind and the result is her doing something she normally wouldn't do. She has snapped, she's not having a hissy fit. She isn't about self-preservation before anything else, otherwise she would not have followed Chris back to the house to look for Sam to begin with (like how Emily didn't want to and instead wanted to escape with Matt). The actions that she must take, regardless of what the player chooses, show that she is willing to risk her life to help her friends. No matter how evil you try to make her with your response choices in the game, she will always help to look for Sam, even though she is scared near witless and doesn't want to do it. Ashley doesn't "egg on" Mike in any way whatsoever. Watch that scene again. Ashley noticed the bite and gets spooked by the idea that Emily might turn into a wendigo. Once Emily admits it's a wendigo bite Mike freaks out all by himself and demands that Emily leave, Sam tried to talk sense into him, and he chooses to grab the gun all by himself, and by himself he chooses whether or not to shoot her. The only thing that Ashley does during the whole scene it tell Emily to leave one more time, after Mike has already decided that's what Emily should do. Ashley doesn't come up with the idea of banishing Emily, she doesn't ask Mike to threaten Emily, she doesn't suggest killing Emily. All she does is get freaked out by the fact that Emily has a wendigo bite. Which is a fear shared by Mike and Chris as well. Mike escalates the situation all by himself, Ashley sure as anything doesn't goad him into "taking care of Emily". Going to find Josh after learning of the superhuman monster outside (which the monster expert assures you would have already taken him) is a dumb idea. The Stranger thinks so too. And although Ashley is the one to tell Chris it's a bad idea to go, no one else who is present backs up Chris on this, not even Sam or action hero Mike. Although Chris wants to get Josh, no one present agrees with him, it's hardly a condemnation of Ashley's normal character that she doesn't either. And she does show remorse for her participation in the prank a year before (despite being the smallest participant). Even if you want to choose all the responses and make her look like she isn't, the spirit board section, and her reaction when they find Hannah's diary show that she feels bad about it. These reactions can't be changed. The developers wanted this to be apparent to her character even if the player picks different responses. Also, something very interesting I noticed. If Chris and Ashley 'bonded', and Chris escapes the Wendigo, and Ashley opens the door, compared to the sabotage scene, the Wendigo seems appear a few seconds later, as Ashley was confused on why Chris was running for dear life; the Wendigo did not appear yet. In the sabotage scene, Ashley chose to leave Chris outside, if she couldn't see the Wendigo at that point, she would not have any reason to leave Chris outside. Butterfly effect, that decision of who to shoot affected the Wendigo's/Chris's running speed. Ashley represents the side of humanity that would do the worst in a survival situation: the caring type. She gets overly attached, she shows too much emotion, and she exhibits too little agression when she needs to. I think a lot of us can identify with that. The problem is, the caring types are usually the first to go, theoretically speaking. If any of you watched the first two seasons of The Walking Dead, Dale was just like Ash: the caring type. He represented everything that we'd want to still be even if the zombie apocalypse happened--always wanting to do the right thing. However, he wasn't exactly the guy you'd want on your team when shit hit the fan. Now Shane, on the other hand, was the survivalist. He was a total douche, but when shit hit the fan he knew how to survive. So, going back to Ash, she's like Dale. Emily is like Shane. Em's a bitch, but she's a survivor because of it. Ash is too kind for the danger she now faces, and depending on your choices, she can absolutely snap because of it. She's not a terrible person. She could be your younger sister, your mom, the girl next door: a normal person thrown into a crazy, fucked up situation. If any of you have seen the first Alien movie (one of my favorites), there's a character named Lambert who was intended to represent the audience. And if you watch the movie, it makes sense. Lambert was always freaking out, like during the chestburster scene, for instance. We identified with her because we were just as scared! Ashley is our Lambert for Until Dawn. She represents the most natural reaction to homicidal killers chasing after you; torture machines about to rip you apart; Wendigos trying to tear you to shreds; your love interest shooting you in the face after distinctly saying he wouldn't do so--she's us. She's how most of us would actually react if this shit happened to us, whether we'd like to admit it or not. She was chosen to represent the audience, just like Lambert from Alien. With all that being said, it's hard for me to hate Ashley. We can all preach to ourselves about how perfect we'd react to the things she had to go through, the decisions we'd have to make. But Ashley represents what would most likely happen to us. We'd freak the fuck out and--as she does--potentially snap. In my opinion, I feel that she thought it was a good idea at the time, letting Chris shoot her, but then when she figured out it was a prank, she could've changed her mind. At the ending in the police interview, Ashley says that she was shocked to see Chris because of the fact that he, her best friend and the guy she had a crush on tried to shoot her. She said she froze cause she was shocked to see the Wendigo, and right after the Wendigo kills Chris and Mike comes in and starts freaking out, she completely snaps out of it. I feel that it wasn't the developers trolling, rather, her just changing her mind. Honestly I've never hated Ashley at all, even when she didn't let Chris in. Yes, Chris doesn't deserve it, yet Ashley's been through a lot. Seeing Josh get cut in half by the buzzsaw even when they later find out it was all a prank can scare the shit out of someone, and it takes a lot to pull through that. Imagine your best friend getting cut in half right next to you while you're bound or incapacitated along with him/her. I'm pretty sure a lot of us will be like Ashley in a situation like this.. Not everyone can be brave and fearless like Mike, or keep calm and / or collected like Sam or Emily. TLDR: Locking the door on Chris sounds a lot more logical when you think about it realistically and Ashley is not as bad as you guys may think. Unlike Sam and Mike, her character actually changes severely depending on your decisions... "Emily is the one who goes for help, arranges a rescue, finds the real threat, reports back to the others that the psycho is not the only threat on the mountain. Yet people hate her." And after doing all that, she still acts bitchy even in the interviews, especially against Matt. That's why many hate her - her bitchiness never truly goes away even if she is the one doing all the Samaritan-like things. This is why people say you can be immensely successful in whatever you do but if your people skills or your attitude are shit, no one's going to like you no matter what you accomplish! Ashley doesn't actively try to get Sam killed. She is fearful of continuing further into the basement in case it is a death trap - they can't help Sam if they're dead, can they? When they do find Sam, she is genuinely concerned about her state. Ashley doesn't actively try to get Josh killed. She simply warns Chris that going outside is a bad idea, due to what the Stranger just told them a minute ago, to save a mentally challenged person that just pranked them to high heavens who, I might add, may already be dead/abducted as the Stranger literally just said. Ashley doesn't 'scream for Emily to be left to die or be shot'. She simply wants Emily to be in a separate area from them. She doesn't tell Emily to go running right into the Wendigo's claws. She doesn't tell Mike to shoot Emily - Mike grabs the gun on his own accord with absolutely no prompting from Ashley whatsoever. Ashley provokes the situation, but is not responsible for Mike wanting to shoot Emily. Ashley doesn't 'actually kills Chris'. It is a result of your actions, albeit a stupidly programmed result. If that is considered as Ashley 'killing' Chris, then I can say Sam kills Josh by not finding Hannah's writings, or Emily kills Matt by not giving him the flare gun and having him try to save her... Not saying that Ashley is the saint of Until Dawn and/or Emily is the devil, but if you're going to make a generalisation about player personalities, at the very least get your facts straight